sugar scoop sailboat

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Stern styles and transom types – sugar scoop, reverse, wineglass, heartshaped, canoe, double ended, ducktail.

Some main types are the raked, flat, canoe, and reverse.

Raked The raked stern is typified by the elongated overhangs of the CCA rules. The Cruising Club of America (CCA) put down rules about the water line length of racing vessels. To increase speed, racers would have long overhangs which when heeled increased LWL and speed. A raked stern combines usually with a long overhang bow. Some examples are the Bermuda 40 and Countess 44.

Flat The flat transom can be plain or lovingly shaped like a wineglass or heart. The stern can be slightly raked but more often slightly reversed. From behind, the transom generally looks like a semi circle. The style traverses all eras. Examples include Herreshof’s Bounty and the Hylas 44.

Canoe Canoe or double enders have a spherical stern. The boat ends in an aerodynamic way. They are standard for cruisers boats for traditional reasons and some say stability issues. The spherical stern smooth edyies away the flow of water. Examples include Bob Perry designs like the V-40 and Harris designs like the Vancouver 42.

Reverse A reverse transom angles backwards from the waterline to the deck. A great example is the sugar scoop variety. A sugar scoop stern is a reverse transom which flexes inwardly, usually with swim steps. The easiest explanation is the picture to the right. You see the Hylas 49 which has such a stern. It gets its name from of course the actual sugar scoop, pictured later in this post. The boats stern is then not the end of the cockpit but actually a molded part of the hull. The cockpit end is set invisibly inside the hull going straight down from the sugar scoop’s upper lip. A sugar scoop stern is the most popular type nowadays.

Sugar scoop sterns provide easy access to the water. The crew can easily slip off and on sternwise to take a swim, launch the dinghy, or just drag their feet along lazily. Traditional sterns, especially a boat with high freeboard, are harder to climb. With a sugar scoop, the stern opens straight from the cockpit to the ocean.

Reverse transom yachts like sugar scoops effectively compare best to slightly smaller traditional models. A 45′ yacht with a sugar scoop compares more with a 40′ traditional transom. The reverse transom effectively adds an extra platform. The deck and storage space is about the same in 45′ reverse transom and 40′ traditional. The backwards slanted and stepped stern is only slightly volumnous. You can fit a little more junk into the aft of the boat or have a slightly larger aft cabin. The stern’s upper lip is more accurately the LOA than the lower lip. Therefore, the stern’s plus is the platform.

Conclusion Stern styles include the raked, flat, canoe, and reverse. The choice is all about what appeals to you.

6 Replies to “Stern Styles and Transom Types – Sugar Scoop, Reverse, Wineglass, Heartshaped, Canoe, Double Ended, Ducktail”

Don’t forget there is both a canoe and a vanishing point stern.  These are not the same stern.

Description of the Endeavour having ‘CCA’ overhangs.

The Endeavour was designed under Nathanael Herreshoff’s Universal Rule.

Not a lot mentioned of modern stern styles, like the plumb racing stern?

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• Sailboat Reviews

In a head-to-head comparison of entry level inboard cruisers, we think the lower price and practicality of the Catalina favors it over the glitter and gloss of the Beneteau.

People who start in small boats and trade up often view 27 feet as some kind of milestone, and rightly so. At around 27 feet, an in­board engine and the possibility of standing headroom are enticing. Accommodations often become spacious enough for two couples or a family of four to live aboard for a couple of weeks without strain. And hull speed with appropriate sail and engine power typically permits average-weather runs of 35 to 40 miles in an 8-hour day—long enough legs to satisfy the wanderlust of most cruisers.

Two of the most popular 27-foot cruising boat designs are from Beneteau and Catalina, both huge builders. Beneteau bills itself as the largest sailboat company in the world; Catalina lays claim to being the largest in the U.S. The designs of both companies often set the tone for styling by other sailboat makers.

Checking out both boats in recent sales listings, we noticed their Euro-styled interior layouts are at least superfi­cially similar as well, as are hull and sail plan dimensions (see chart, courtesy of our friernds at Sailboatdata.com. Which boat, we wondered, is the better buy, and for whom?

Both the Beneteau and the Catalina utilize modern wide-body, fin-keel, spade-rudder configurations, relatively long waterlines, and moderate rigs with shrouds moved in­board to permit a nar­rower sheeting base. The Beneteau has a slightly shorter LOA but longer LWL (length waterline), and a nearly plumb bow. The 265’s draft is mid-range (4′ 2″ vs. the Catalina’s choice of 5′ 0″ deep fin or 3′ 6″ fin with wings).

Both test boats have inboards. Catal­ina does not offer an outboard option as it once did with its old 27. Catalina’s chief engineer, Gerry Douglas, doesn’t think it’s suitable for a 27- footer, especially one weighing 6,400 pounds-and, he says, neither did most buyers of Catalina 27s over the last several years. (Among other prob­lems, in a seaway an outboard prop tends to ventilate excessively).

Still, Beneteau, with a 4,800-lb. boat, offered an outboard version of the First 265 when the boat came out in the 90s, and rec­ommends a 9.9-hp. outboard for those who wish to go this route. So far, few buyers have. Beyond the ventilating prop problem, the reason is mostly economic: By the time Beneteau buyers acquire the outboard engine and associated paraphernalia, the dollar difference between inboard and outboard shrinks to around and those who opt for the outboard miss the shore power option and electric hot water heater option which Beneteau threw in” free” with the inboard pack­age.

The rigs of the two boats may ap­pear quite similar at first glance, but upon close inspection a number of important differences emerge.

The Beneteau features a seven­-eighths rig with single spreaders, adjustable split backstay, mast stepped on deck with compression strut in the cabin, and shrouds tied into a force grid molded into the cabin top via a set of studs threaded into a patented con­figuration involving stem balls set into bronze plates. (We’d prefer a set of conventional-and more easily ad­justable and replaceable turnbuckles.) The mast is stepped on a hinge for lowering the spar at bridges, trailer ramps, or for maintenance, but Beneteau says use of the hinge is not recommended without side-sway preventers- currently available as an option in Europe, but not in the U.S.

The Beneteau’s genoa sheets lead to cars riding on C-shaped aluminum tracks, which double as handrails, on the cabintop. It’s not easy to grab the tracks/rails, which require feeding your fingers through a narrow slot molded into the coach roof. We’d rather see separate handrails. We’d also prefer to see the Beneteau’s cockpit­ mounted mainsheet traveler track moved forward onto the cabintop (as the Catalina is configured), so crew moving from cockpit to cabin don’t have to dodge the mainsheet and car. But, unfortunately, moving the track forward isn’t feasible because of the long companionway bridge deck, which reaches forward beyond the boom’s midpoint.

The Catalina’s masthead rig, even with double spreaders (permitting use of a lighter spar than the Beneteau), is more conventional. Although the Catalina’s mast is shorter and its main­sail is smaller, the foretriangle height is two feet taller than the Beneteau’s, resulting in more total sail area when setting a big genoa.

The Catalina’s rig design strives for simplicity and ease of use (no backstay bridle ad­justment, no line-adjusted genoa car position as on the Beneteau). Helping to make sailing the Catalina a no-hassle experience is an impressive array of standard equip­ment not seen on the Beneteau: A double-ended mainsheet, adjustable either at a cam cleat on the traveler car or at a cabin top stopper, where a winch can be used; a pair of two-speed Lewmar self-tailing #30s (compared to Beneteau’s single speed #16s); a standard 135-percent genoa on a good ­quality Hood single-line furler (compared to Beneteau’s standard 100-percent jib and furler hardware available only as an option); a total of five cabintop rope clutches (vs. three for the Beneteau); Dutchman mainsail flaking sys­tem; and single-line reefing (though our Catalina test boat did not have single-line reefing rigged).

Other features on deck also favor the Catalina. Working aft from the bow: The welded pulpit, like the stan­chions, is 1-inch stainless steel tubing (vs. the Beneteau’s 7/8-inch), has two horizontal rails (vs. one for the Beneteau) and four legs (three for the Beneteau). There are twin anchor rollers at the stemhead (one on the Beneteau). Both boats have anchor lockers built into the forward deck, but the Beneteau’ s locker has a water tank fill cap in its bottom. This can make it extremely inconvenient to fill the tank when line and chain are piled over the cap. And the combination bow light is mounted directly behind and partly obscured by the center support of the pulpit.

Moving further aft, the Catalina’s six stanchions are fitted with double lifelines and, being 24-3/4 inches off the deck, give a good measure of security. In con­trast, the Beneteau has only four stanchions, less than 18 inches high, with sin­gle lifelines. The low lifelines are at “tripping height,” and while the scale may be aesthetically pleasing, safety is compromised.

The cockpits on both boats have comfortably high, canted coamings and angled seats. The Catalina’s cockpit is noticeably roomier, due not only to the absence of a cockpit traveler, but also to the placement of the wheel way aft, with an athwartships helm seat 5 feet wide-big enough for three for cocktails at the mooring. On the Catalina, there’s room for nine at the dock, as big a cockpit as could be desired in this size boat. And that doesn’t include a pair of “observation seats” built into each corner of the push pit.

In contrast, the Beneteau seats no more than seven at the dock, and that assumes that one passenger is seated atop the traveler and the tiller is swung up out of the way.

We have no objection to tillers-in fact we generally prefer them in this size boat—provided there’s no no­ticeable drag in the rudder tube and that the forward end is a comfortable height over the sole.

Catalina chose Edson for its 32-inch stainless steel destroyer wheel on a pedestal, a brand we associate with high quality and reliability. The size and placement is good for steering from either a sitting or standing posi­tion; brake and compass binnacle (4- inch Danforth Constellation) are stan­dard; pedestal-mounted brackets for additional instruments such as depth sounder and speedo are extra.

The Beneteau’s compass is option­al, mounted along with any other op­tional instruments on the cabinhouse bulkhead, a better position for crew viewing but not as good for the helms­man.

Both boats have swim platforms and stainless swing-down swim ladders. The Catalina easily wins the Ladder Sweepstakes with a four-step, 24-inch wide ladder with flat plastic treads, compared to the Beneteau’s three-step, 8-1/2-inch wide ladder with treads only 1-1/4-inch wide, made by flattening the stainless tubing a bit.

The Catalina’s ladder swings up to form the center part of the push pit, a clever and neat-looking design. The Beneteau ropes off the transom area with a length of lifeline and a pelican hook.

Both swim platforms are molded into “sugar-scoop” transoms, and both are elevated 9 inches off the water, with a bit of transom projecting below.

CONSTRUCTION

Both boats utilize external bolt-on lead keels, suitably thick fiberglass lay-up schedules, solid glass hulls and balsa­cored decks, with reasonably stout hull-deck connections. Both have highly engineered force grids molded into their hull liners, of particular note since the shrouds in both boats lead not to traditional chainplates but to intermediate tie rods that in turn are joined to metal plates for the most part hidden behind interior liners. On both boats we would prefer better inspection ports to view these crucial connections.

On both boats, the pulpits and stanchions are fastened to the deck with a single large threaded stud, projecting down through the deck and secured with a large washer and nut. Four through-bolts and large backing plates to distribute the load would be better.

Deck hardware (blocks, tracks, hatches, ports) on the Catalina is mostly made by Garhauer, Nibo, and Beck­son, all vendors noted for producing decent-quality but low-cost equip­ment. On the Beneteau, Harken, Spin­lock, and Lewmar are predominant and, in our opinion, something of an upgrade. As already mentioned, both boats use Lewmar winches. We judged all branded hardware on both boats to be of acceptable quality.

The interior layouts on the two boats are quite similar: a large double-berth aft, galley to port next to the compan­ionway, head opposite the galley, U­-shaped dining area around a smallish table supported by the mast compres­sion post with a V-berth forward. (See line drawings.)

All berths on both boats have com­fortable 4-inch cushions. The aft berth on the Beneteau measures 60″ x 77″, and you sleep parallel to the keel; the Catalina is slightly narrower at 57 inches wide, is 74 inches to 86 inches long depending on which side you’re on, and you sleep athwartships. We wouldn’t be inclined to sleep two in either aft berth, since the inside party not only doesn’t have much vertical roll-over room due to incursion of the cockpit sole, but also must crawl over the outside party to get up.

Neither the Catalina nor the Beneteau forward berths have these prob­lems. On the Beneteau, you can lower the table and set up the berth without undue commotion; but setting up the Catalina berth involves a lot of fussy positioning of the raised forward seat and locking it in place with a pair of hard-to-reach latches.

The forward berth on the Beneteau measures 19 inches at the front, 76 inches at the back, and is 88 inches long. On the Catalina it’s 10 inches at the front, 68 inches at the back, and 75 inches long. Tall folks will appreciate the larger Beneteau berth.

The Beneteau has the edge on locker space, with three separate hanging lockers (including one open-air unit in the head), and a liquor cabinet under what a Beneteau brochure de­scribes as a nav station.  Still, this small horizontal surface gives the galley slave some countertop space. The Catalina also suffers from lack of sufficient galley top work­ing space…one of the compromises you’ll find in boats of this size range.

The use of maintenance-hungry exterior wood has been completely eliminated on the Catalina, and min­imized on the Beneteau except for the companionway drop slides (King Star­Board plastic on the Catalina, nicely varnished cherry-veneer plywood on the Beneteau). Below, both boats use some wood to visually warm up the otherwise mostly white interior. The surface is totally fiberglass on the Catalina, but on the Beneteau, soft white foam­-backed vinyl lines the upper halves of the hull sides. .

Catalina’s use of wood is sparing (varnished teak doors and trim, teak dining table, small patch of maple and teak sole forward), while Beneteau’s is lavish (varnished cherry bulkheads and trim, full teak sole). The wood is set off on both boats by neatly made upholstery on berths and settees, on the Catalina by a combination of Ultrasuede-like material and light pat­terned cotton fabrics, on the Beneteau by a practical and soft dark green velvet.

The Beneteau interior gives an impression of good craftsmanship with a dark though pleasant­ly airy cabin. On the Catalina, the impression is of a more basic, but much lighter and equally airy boat. The Catalina’s lightness is helped by a skylight of milk-white Plexiglas (two layers thick) aft of the mast, and more area in the main cabin ports. For ven­tilation, the Catalina has six opening ports plus a forward hatch, while the Beneteau has eight plus a forward hatch. Screens for the ports (but not for either the forward or main hatch) are standard on both the Catalina and the Beneteau. Neither boat has a roll­up sunshade over the forward hatch, which would be a nice touch.

PERFORMANCE

We did our testing on the Manatee River off Palmetto, Florida. Both boats seemed quite stiff, well balanced, and very responsive to the helm. Both could be spun in more or less their own length. The day we sailed the Beneteau, it was blowing 15 knots steadily and 20 in gusts, and the 265 heeled not more than 25 degrees close-hauled with full sail. This impressed us. So did the Catalina, which was at least as stable on a breezier day (wind 20-25, occasional gusts to 30) with full sail, only burying the rail once in a particularly vicious wind burst. In short, we wouldn’t hesitate to sail either boat in dusty weather.

Though hard to judge in such strong, shifting winds, we think the Beneteau had the edge in sailing speed, as her specifications would indicate. Un­der power, however, her smaller engine and prop (single-cylinder, 9-hp., 26-CID Volvo, 15 x 12 optional fold­ing prop) was definitely not as effective upwind as the Catalina’s (three-­cylinder, 18-hp, 3 7-CID Perkins, two-­blade 13 x 10 prop). The Catalina’s Perkins also was smoother and quiet­er, despite the fact that its engine box (two removable clam-shells back to back, of fiberglass-foam sandwich construction) had no added insula­tion, while the Beneteau’s plywood box was lined with soft foam. Engine and shaft log access was very good on the Beneteau, superb on the Catalina.

At the moment, PHRF for the Beneteau is 168. The Catalina’s is 198.

THE BOTTOM LINE

To some extent, the choice between the Beneteau 265 and the Catalina 270 is a trade off between elegant French styling on the one hand, and no-non­sense American practicality on the other.

The choice comes down to the Beneteau’s lighter hull with quicker acceleration, and the Catalina’s equal­ly maneuverable but heavier hull with greater load-carrying capacity and liv­ing space below.

All boats are compromises, and personal taste and prejudices do enter the picture. That said, we admit to a clear preference for the Catalina. We especially like the lightness and bright­ness of its interior, enhanced by nu­merous large ports and an overhead skylight. Most of all, we like the Catal­ina’s greater value for the money-not just because the overall price is about 10 percent lower than a comparable Beneteau, but because of the better choice of standard items. For example, note the differences between some of the Beneteau’s items and the Catal­ina’s: 9-hp. raw-water-cooled engine vs. 18-hp. freshwater-cooled; no en­gine tach or fuel gauge vs. both stan­dard; 8.25-gallon fuel tank vs. 14 gal­lons; 16.25-gallon water tank vs. 26 gallons; holding tank 11.5 gallons vs. 18; single-speed #16 self-tailing Lewmars vs. two-speed #30 STs; a 1.6- gpm Shurflo pressure water pump vs. a 2.8-gpm Shurflo pump: a gimbaled two-burner non-pressure alcohol stove vs. a gimbaled two-burner LPG stove, and so on.

The Catalina is heavier, more stable, roomier, and better equipped. The Beneteau has more stowage lockers, faster acceleration, and French-flavored rather than California ­flavored Eurostyle. Both boats do well in heavy air. Neither is a racehorse likely to win much in competition. Neither wins the prize as the ultimate low-cost 27-footer, though the Catalina 270 may come close. Now if Catalina had only installed a good-size hanging locker, put in more working counter surface in the galley, make it easier to make up the forward berth…

This review was first published November 23, 2015 and has been updated.

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Excellent comparison on both boats. I have been looking at the B & C and your article cleared up many questions I had.

Having owned a Catalina 270 for about 8 years now, and having upgraded most of the systems to reasonably current technology, we’d say this boat is a pleasure to sail. The only rea downsides are a lack of storage, (to be expected in a 27 footer) and the steering gear cover in the aft berth. It’s really annoying.

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adding a sugar scoop to 46ft cross tri

Discussion in ' Multihulls ' started by mpsm1957 , Oct 4, 2006 .

mpsm1957 New Member

I have a 46ft cross tri built in 1975, I'm hauling out this month and was seriously thinking about adding a sugar scoop to the center hull. It is of a diagonal plank construction with epoxy and cloth on both sides. I was thinking of using high density foam wrapped in epoxy and cloth, but what I'm not sure of is how to attach this to the hull, and also is there a lot of stress at this point. If there is someone that can lead me in the right I would appreciate it greatly. thanks Peter Murray  

catmando2 Malaysia bound....soon

Hi mpsm1957, i've done a bit of this stuff before ou of Divinecell and Termanto foams in Australia. I'm sure you can get the 80 kg stuff in the states. I've usually just used 2 layers of 600gsm biax on a 20 mm core on cats around 50 foot. Make sure all exposed edges and areas that will get a knock have foam taken out and filled in with a high density filler with small bits of glass fiber. Ataching to the hull.... if you put 200mm wide strip of packing tape onto your transom before you build you can then cove and glass with say a 600 gsm double bias direcly onto the hull. when insides off step is done it can then be cracked of the transom and glassed and faired on the outside with gravity on your side. When finished you have a nice glass flange [where you had coved and glassed onto hull ] which can now be sanded ,and glue structure onto hull. Glass outside joint with 600 gsm d/b.and fair it in. I only ever use epoxy resins as the mechanicals are far superior [ in my opinion] Hope this helps a bit, I may have an example of a step job I did on my last cat in my gallery, if not I'll get one on soon. Dave  

Dave, Thanks so much for the reply. I do have a couple of questions so I'm clear on what your saying. us packing tape on transom so epoxy won't stick to it, correct? when you shape the divinecell to the shape of the hull or what ever shape you want, what are you using to keep the shape (trade secrets) after all the glassing is done to scoop, and now it's time to attach, you have the flange inside and a seam outside. how much of an overlap do you need to (glue?) the scoop on to the hull on the inside as well as the outside? I appreciate any advice you can give me Thanks Again Peter  

Hi peter, I'd use timber in the vicinity of 3 X 2 spaced about 300mm/1ft apart. you will have to screw these to your hull and they need to be parallel with the waterline. Use chipboard screws with a coarse thread and long or short enough not to go through your inside skin.I put 1 about 1inch from transom and 1 about 500mm in. As you will have to fair and repaint, youll fill them back in anyway.Just be carefull as this is only meant to be strong enough to hold the foam, not you. Overlap: depending on how much glass you have on the outside, you could feather it down over 200 mm and when step is offered back up , do a dry fit and check everything is where it should be and looks good to the eye. put a few pencil lines from step onto hull as a reference point, take off /grind/clean/glue,and let that cure. By rights 3 inches onto the hull is all the overlap needs to be ,I go 4, so an 8 inch band of 600 gsm db and then a 5 inch band if you want to go belt and braces. let it start to kick and bog it. Of course then when you start to fair you can sand a bit of glass and as long as you don't hit the first layer everything is fine. Have fun, hope this helps. This how I've done a heap of this style of job and it works for me. But there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. this is the simplest i'd reckon. Dave  

Thanks Dave, that helpes a lot, I'll let you know how she turns out. Thanks Again Peter  

kach22i Architect

If you don't mind me asking; how does a sugar scoop transom work, what is it's function?  

I'm assuming it will end up being steps like pic. easy acsess to dinghy and more waterline length. Waterline length is everything. Dave  

Attached Files:

catmando2 said: I'm assuming it will end up being steps like pic. easy acsess to dinghy and more waterline length. Waterline length is everything. Dave Click to expand...

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Tri guy New Member

If you are still looking for a sugar scoop transom on a Cross tri take a look at my website: www.thedawntreader.com Moxie is a Cross 46MkIIB modified with daggerboards and a "sugar scoop transom. It makes a great docking station and fishing platform. http://thedawntreader.com/images/100_0492.JPG http://thedawntreader.com/images/PacificCrossing/pc021.jpg http://thedawntreader.com/images/Societies/IMGA0205a.JPG The addition at the transom effectively gave us two more feet at the waterline and a much cleaner exit. In 23,000+ open ocean miles Moxie averages over 150 nm a day and on good days does over 200 nm. Our best day was 241nm. Fair Winds and Following Seas, -Dale S/V Moxie Ko Olina Marina, Oahu, Hi.  

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Cruising Boat Designs

A blog about boats, books, voyages we've made, and yacht design. If you are a designer or builder and would like to have your boat reviewed, send drawings, photos and details to [email protected]

Saturday, October 23, 2010

Building the transom extension.

2 comments:

I am looking to do a more extensive transom extension and am looking for advice. My post about this is here, if you wouldn't mind checking it out and telling me your thoughts: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/how-do-i-add-transom-extension-my-monohull-sailboat-39004.html

Placing a generator in the stern of the Cal Cruising 35 puts a lot of extra weight there. This will result in the boat floating down by the stern and up in the bow. The boat trims at the longitudinal center of buoyancy, roughly halfway between the forward and aft ends of the waterline, and I suggest that you first look at how the boat is floating. Adding a 'sugar scoop' will increase the sailing waterline length, but will not improve the way the boat is trimmed. Adding a transom extension with room for more gear will add even more weight in the stern. If you want to improve the sailing qualities of the boat, you might consider removing the genset. In such a small boat you would probably be better off with a Honda 2000 portable genset. These are small and very lightweight, and can be located wherever you want. That generator in the stern needs regular servicing and I imagine that access to the filters and belts is not easy. I assume that it is diesel powered, but if it's gasoline powered I would strongly recommend removing it. If you send me your email address I'll be glad to give you more detailed advice.

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Sugar Scoop sterns

• Thread starter Sailfree
• Start date 5 Sep 2014

Well-known member

I appreciate that boat trends often follow ways to maximize potential with the then current racing rules. Bows have now got more vertical but sterns have gone to rear fold down flaps for bathing. Appreciate that racing designs are often open. Why did they ever go to sugar scoop? Was it just to provide a cheap bathing platform at the expense of internal capacity for any given length?  

Made getting the soap-dish hull out of the mould easier.  

Momentary Lapse of Reason

Good cruising feature means ease of provisioning at sea etc. Smaller boats now put premium on interior space hence maximise use of length and incorporate a fold-down for dinghy and pontoon access. If you look at modern bigger cruisers like the Gunfleet 58, Contest, Oyster etc, the sugar scoop is still there given the available length.  

Just_sayin'

One of the reasons we sold our Rassy was that mooring stern to in The Med was far more difficult with a conventional transom. I see that all their latest models now benefit from getting the soap-dish out of the mould easier.  

Just_sayin' said: One of the reasons we sold our Rassy was that mooring stern to in The Med was far more difficult with a conventional transom. I see that all their latest models now benefit from getting the soap-dish out of the mould easier. Click to expand...

Obviously LWL wants to be maximum. The weight should be kept out of the extreme ends of the boat, so making the last 2ft open as a scoop is quite sensible. If you have a large empty area like on a race boat, cruisers will stuff it with tat from Force 4.  

Sailfree said: Wouldn't a drop down stern flap keeping the length minimum be preferable? Click to expand...

I keep my boat on a swinging mooring, and I love my big sugar scoop, wouldn't be without one now! Not interested in racing, boat used for cruising only and the scoop is idea for loading and unloading supplies, dogs, etc. in safety.  

Trop Cher said: I keep my boat on a swinging mooring, and I love my big sugar scoop, wouldn't be without one now! Not interested in racing, boat used for cruising only and the scoop is idea for loading and unloading supplies, dogs, etc. in safety. Click to expand...

jordanbasset

l'escargot

Sailfree said: ...Was it just to provide a cheap bathing platform at the expense of internal capacity for any given length? Click to expand...

l'escargot said: Some boat builders such as Westerly added a sugar-scoop to some existing flat transom boats and so actually increasing the internal volume and length as well as providing a bathing platform. Click to expand...

Lots of reasons, but mainly driven by the growth in the Med market where stern to boarding is common, as is regular swimming off the boat. Cheap way of increasing LWL and providing the platform. Some builders have the transom as part of the deck moulding because it is not structural as it does not take rigging loads, so hulls are easier to mould and then fill with furniture etc by just walking in. Massive saving in build times. Drawback is reduction in accommodation for a given hull length so trend now is to plumb ends and drop down transoms to preserve the boarding feature. Many charter yachts have a warning that any damage to the transom is the charter's responsibility and it is forbidden to lower the transom until the boat is moored. So for many a poor substitute for the proper thing - which as has been suggested still survives on boats where cramming in accommodation for length is not so important.  

mjcoon said: I can see how an addition increases the external length (which may be charged for when parking) but not how it increase internal volume... Mike. Click to expand...

l'escargot said: Well it does, the extra volume is inside the sugar scoop. When they put one on the 36' Corsair to turn it into the 38' Oceanranger, it gave enough room to turn the double berth in the aft cabin fore and aft instead of transverse. Click to expand...

prv said: As I understand it, the definition of a sugar scoop is that it doesn't have anything inside it. If it has a cabin inside it, it's a transom or a counter. Pete Click to expand...

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any downside to the sugarscope/ swim platforms?

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Now that I have a 6 year old daughter, I would like my next boat to have a swim platform for ease of in/out of the water for swiming, dingy, etc... Our last boat ('71-30' Westerly) obviously did not but we actually fab'ed up a make shift one (which did not really do the trick). Anyway, are there any downsides to the newer designs with the built in swim platforms? The only one I see is that it requires me to get a newer boat (in the 28-32' range). Thanks for the input, Matt (Maryland Bay area)  

I don't have a sugar scoop on our older CSY; depending on your intended use I'd be concerned about following seas.  

We've had following seas break over the dinghy, let alone the scoop, without any adverse concern for the boat, cockpit, etc. Actually, filling the dink with water is a concern for weight on the davits, but that has nothing to do with the transom design. The only negative that I would offer, is that the stern has a tendancy to slap on the water, especially if there are waves from the rear at an anchorage or dock. That can make it hard to sleep in some conditions. This doesn't happen often.  

I'd have to agree w/ the stern slapping from wakes can be a little annoying but to be able to sit in the scoup in the shade of the dingy and hang your feet in the water on a hot day like today, I'll take it. Jim  

two things we have noticed... if you tie stern to, the step down from many docks/piers is a BIG step either way.... When you back in to a slip, that nice sharp edge (or expensive ladder/davit/grill/toy) is the first thing to hit the piling...and it is hard to fender if you have a center piling in your slip, like we did... Other than that we love it, so easy in and out of the water, you can get scuba gear on and off easier All the best  

If the boat is designed properly, and most are, the following seas should not be a problem. They have a wide ass stern in most cases by design. As for the slap, it can be a problem. However, if you get a foam swim tube, run a line through it and tie it so it is under the stern at anchor or more importanly in a slip, it takes care of the slap. Enjoy!  

Well actually the sugar scooop and the swim platform is where the Orcas and Great Whites can come aboard and take a pick of which tasty crewmember they want. Also it ease the way for pirates to come aboard and do their dastardly deeds. But the sugar scoop eases the wash down of any upchucks from sea-sick crew members.  

Uh huh. What Boasun said. Ahem. <clears throat> Also, a concern in recent years with swim platforms is carbon monoxide poisoning when boats run generators or their engines to keep the AC on. Otherwise, yeah. Watch out for the sharks and pirates in the Bay. I don't have a sugar scoop (I just learned what that is!) so I have the Little Red Bucket when the wings and wine don't agree.  

Watch out for the Orcas in the Bay also...  

The nice big opening in the transom is handy for losing things like winch handles and cameras.  

This I do not like about mine. But even when the swim ladder is up, I can reach it from the water which would be nice if I were to ever fall overboard lol!  

It was fun in the Galapagos to see what scoop-owners tried to do to keep sea lions from climbing aboard - every kind of barrier you could imagine. Almost no one could keep the noisy but interesting beasts off the bottom step or two since there was no where to attach fenders and whatnot. We even had a sea lion try to jump onboard our boat without a scoop and with about 4' of freeboard. Made a hell of a noise.  

Man, you guys really need to watch out for orcas.  

OP defines his needs and environment he sails. Regardless what we need and want, OP needs a swim platform for his 6 year old daughter. This dictates at least 10 years or more for a swim platform. i would say Go for it. His daughter safety and pleasure outweigh the bads.  

rockDAWG said: OP defines his needs and environment he sails. Regardless what we need and want, OP needs a swim platform for his 6 year old daughter. This dictates at least 10 years or more for a swim platform. i would say Go for it. His daughter safety and pleasure outweigh the bads. Click to expand...

I got to thinking about the theory behind some of those old sailing hull designs. The length at the waterline was short to minimize wetted surface, and therefore friction, in light air. Heavier air would heel the boat over and increase the water line, thereby raising the hull speed when power is available to drive the boat faster. Doesn't it stand to reason that a boat with a sugar scoop stern will be slower than a boat with a traditional stern in light winds, all other things being equal? Then again, all other things are rarely equal. Modern hull design, with its greater form stability, will tolerate the greater heeling moment of more sail area, which increases driving force. The force of greater sail area will probably overcome the extra friction of the sugar scoop. What I can't imagine the modern sugarscoop hulls doing, however, is producing a ride as comfortable as that of the traditional hull with overhangs when beating into the wind and seas.  

Matt, i'm wondering what a swim platform would buy you, that a good kickboard or boogy board wouldn't. Either of those would give her a way to get out of the water, and then slip off to a good boarding ladder. I don't see any magic in a stern platform, other than guaranteeing you'll pay for an extra two or three feet of AOL wheneer you dock the boat. In terms of safety...if she's out of the water she's out of the water either way, and at six or even eight, she shouldn't be swimming without some kind of supervision in any case. (Not being judgemental, but even kids cramp, and having someone watching them is not an all-bad-idea.) I just don't see any real gain by changing the boat. The sales tax alone could buy her some incredible water toys, like a canoe and kayak and swim platform all her own.  

good points, however I am currently boatless so no tax issue.  

One of the recurring themes in every discussion of man overboard scenarios is how hard it is to get someone back on board if you recover him, especially someone who is exhausted. Three feet of freeboard, even with a ladder, is a very tough climb. I really like the sugarscoop for that and for the fact that water on board quickly exits, and we don't have to worry about inadequate or clogged scuppers.  

That's an oft-cited argument, but I think it can cut both ways&#8230; Many modern boats have extremely raked scoop sterns that feature a rather "sharp" trailing edge&#8230; This type of transom can present a considerable danger to a person in the water in heavy seas, a boat pitching can bring this overhang down upon a MOB with surprising violence and force, and many times it will be far safer to try to recover a person alongside, where the vertical side of the hull presents little danger to a swimmer&#8230; If you've ever had to dive upon a prop or rudder, for example, in open water, you'll learn to fear being under the broad, flat expanse typical of the aft sections of many modern hulls, they can present a serious danger in rougher seas&#8230; Likewise in boarding from a dinghy, once the wave action gets to a certain point, it can become far riskier to attempt to board from astern onto a scoop transom, than it will from amidships&#8230; Most dangerous of all, can be the sort of fold-out transom garage doors that we see the pretty models perched upon in the Sunsail and Moorings ads&#8230; For flat water anchorages only, they're useless in any sort of seaway, or rougher conditions&#8230; Of no concern to the original poster's use for his boat in the Chesapeake, of course - but IMHO one of the biggest drawbacks to a scoop transom is the issue of security, for anyone cruising in regions where that might be an issue&#8230; They're an open invitation for swimmers from shore to board your boat&#8230; I was feeling a bit smug, for example, when I spent a few days in Burglary Bay in the Honduran Bay Islands, surrounded by much larger, fancier boats, all sporting their low-slung, "Welcome Aboard" transoms... (grin)  

Hey, Make you understand the difference between a 'sugar scoop' swim platform, and a 'walk through transom' because the two are different. As best as I can tell, the built in Swim platform started in the bid 80's on boats like the O'day 31 / 35 / 40, Newport 33, and maybe a few others. By the late 80s' early 90's most boats had swim platforms, and by the mid to late 90's most boats had open or walk through transoms. Since I'm most familiar with the O'day 35 I can tell you that there is NO downside to the swim platform. In 1986 O'day added an swim platform to the 30 (turning it into a 31), 34 (to the 35) and 39. The swim platform makes boarding the boat from a dingy and water much easier. From the platform you still need to step up and over the transom to get into the cockpit, but since the platform is close to the water it's an (relatively) easy step from a dingy. The walk through transom will make it easier to get into the cockpit, and I would like my next boat to have one, but that's not an absolute requirement. A swim platform is a definite requirement. Barry  

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> > Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. 18-06-2022, 04:30   Boat: Royal Cape Catamaran 53 ft 20 tons . See attached pics. If one followed the existing line of the inside of the , the sugar scoop extension would narrow in slightly. However, in my instance, we've diverted slightly such that the sugar scoop widens on the inside by a marginal amount of approximately 5 to 10 cm. ( 2 to 4 inches max) I wonder if the slight widening of the aft of the vessel below the waterline will create any undue drag or is it negligible and thus of no significance. Id immensely appreciate the knowledge of experienced specialists rather than speculation and opinion from non specialists. Thank you kindly.     18-06-2022, 10:05   Boat: Sabre 402 18-06-2022, 10:13   Boat: Royal Cape Catamaran 53 ft 20 tons builders and experienced folk whose opinion Id value and respect. Their knowledge is invaluable. I didn't mean to offend. 18-06-2022, 12:14   Boat: TRT 1200 18-06-2022, 12:46   Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat . If you're looking for swim platform space, why not just have the area overhang and not push the hull out too? - Youtube Vlog - 18-06-2022, 13:12   Boat: St Francis MKII 50' is larger than the scoop widths and given that the hull spacing is something like 12', the impact of 6" (3 on each side) should not be significant. However, it would be interesting to see how the bulge impacts fluid flow at and near that location. I would suspect that, if there were to be any real impact it would come more from that kind of fluid dynamics than it would from the slight flow rate change going from 12' to a 11.5'. You might be surprised to find out what it does. I know that little things like winglets on jets and rear cowlings on trucks can have a handful of percent impact on drag from turbulent-like effects. Sometimes, a little change that increases the laminar flow part can really have a good impact. Once it is in the , you might try to see if you can see what kind of eddys, turbulence, or other flow changes arise. That's really a better way than to try to model fluid flow at an interface. That kind of modeling is notoriously difficult and sensitive to assumptions around speed, surface dynamics, and more. I doubt any model would give a highly accurate prediction of what that bulge would do. That's one reason tunnels are still so common. To help you see what is happening, you might try a little dye in the or some ash to help you see what the water is doing. If I had to guess, I'd guess the effect is small, but that, at some speeds, it might be noticeable and not necessarily negative. Thread Tools Rate This Thread : Posting Rules post new threads post replies post attachments edit your posts is are code is are are are Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post Ortolan General Sailing Forum 2 24-02-2022 11:58 Peregrine1983 Monohull Sailboats 3 20-07-2019 03:07 Lihuedooley77 Fishing, Recreation & Fun 2 11-12-2018 07:41 Sabbatical II Anchoring & Mooring 8 22-04-2010 13:50 jerry f Construction, Maintenance & Refit 7 21-07-2005 15:15 No Threads to Display. - - - - - - - Privacy Guaranteed - your email is never shared with anyone, opt out any time. Forums New posts Unanswered threads Register Top Posts Email What's new New posts New Posts (legacy) Latest activity New media Media New media New comments Boat Info Downloads Weekly Quiz Topic FAQ 10000boatnames.com Classifieds Sell Your Boat Used Gear for Sale Parts General Marine Parts Hunter Beneteau Catalina MacGregor Oday Help Terms of Use Monday Mail Subscribe Monday Mail Unsubscribe Sugar Scoop Thread starter papabenn Start date May 7, 2014 Catalina Owner Forums Ask A Catalina Owner Can someone please enlighten me as to when (what year) Catalina added the sugar scoop with a walkthrough transom to the 36' or 34'? Thanks!   Stu Jackson http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Evolution_of_the_Catalina_34 The C36 skippers may have something similar: www.c36ia.org   This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies. Accept Learn more… 420 IMAGES Blue Passion Sugar Scoop island packet 349 Swim Step / Sugar Scoop Archives Swim Step / Sugar Scoop Archives Sugar Scoop Sugar Scoop VIDEO Ridiculous boat projects Melges MC Scow · Sarasota Bay Cup Day 1 Hunter 326 Fairhope Yacht Club Robbins Flynn 2007 Beneteau 373 for sale in Kemah, TX, US *SOLD* 34’ CS 34 1990 2012 Sea Ray 260 Sundancer COMMENTS Stern Styles and Transom Types A sugar scoop stern is the most popular type nowadays. Sugar scoop sterns provide easy access to the water. The crew can easily slip off and on sternwise to take a swim, launch the dinghy, or just drag their feet along lazily. Traditional sterns, especially a boat with high freeboard, are harder to climb. With a sugar scoop, the stern opens ... What's wrong with a sugar scoop? This allows any small waves to slap slap slap on the flatish underside of the hull. If the boat has an aft cabin, this noise can get very wearisome, even when the waves are only slightly larger than ripples. (Not all sugar scoop boats have this problem, but many do.) These are just a few of my general observations. List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop Location: aboard, in Tasmania, Australia. Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop. Posts: 29,301. Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop. de Carabas, You could check out Van de Stadt designs. The Samoa has the skeg hung rudder, and a tiny scoop, but if your were building it, surely you could lengthen it if you wished. Sugar Scoop Stern A work of art. Stain glass window in stern, mermaid at bow. Today also I launched our 10ft RIB from our Ocean Marine Davits, double fiberglass bottom with 9.9 HP Yamaha. W/O that sugar scoop stern, and getting near 70, it would have been very problematic for my Lab and my wife, lol. I will have to put that old dream aside. Sugar scoop transom safety in big seas 3) The lower the enclosing bulkhead the less water that needs to be drained, and thus the faster the weight can be gotten rid of. 4) The transom board rides in a slot and the system is designed around a crashing wave coming in from the transom. 5) The hatch boards are manual in nature, the electric is an option. Sugar Scoops The old Dixie Chicken (Elliot 36) had a 4 foot scoop added just before Liz Wardley bought her, and Liz sailed happily like that for 2 or 3 years (short crewed though). That being said, when Liz sold the boat to the Enticer Syndicate, after 6-12 months the boys took the scoop back off to save weight. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other... l dont like my miserable sugar scoop stern! Posts: 4,625. l dont like my miserable sugar scoop stern! Everything in boat design is a compromise. I have a canoe stern, which is arguably the quietest of sterns short of a true double-ender, and has other admirable qualities as well. But I give up plenty in the bargain from cockpit space to easy access to the water. List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop Join Date: Oct 2018. Location: Boston. Boat: Farr 40 (Racing), Contest 43 (Cruising) Posts: 950. Re: List of boats with skeg and sugar scoop. Of production today all these have both a rudder skeg and a sugar scoop transom: • Hallberg-Rassy. what year did the Catalina 36 get the sugar scoop The first sugar scoop transom was introduced in the late 1990 model year. It first appeared without a walk thru, but was quickly replace with the walk thru feature. I own a early 1990 model which does not have the swim step or walk thru feature. I went this route because the same year model with sugar scoop and walk thru transom demands an ... Catalina 270 vs. The Beneteau First 265 Used Boat Match-Up That pushpit seating offers ample compensation for somewhat shorter bench seating. Big plus: A swim ladder aft leads to the sugar-scoop transom. Still, Beneteau, with a 4,800-lb. boat, offered an outboard version of the First 265 when the boat came out in the 90s, and rec­ommends a 9.9-hp. outboard for those who wish to go this route. Why do some yachts have a sugar scoop? The main reason for a sugar-scoop is to ensure that wavelets hitting the stern make an infuriating slap slap slap noise all night thereby ensuring that sleep is impossible in the aft cabin. Aint't dat da truff. 1. 2. Sugar scoop for hunter 34 16. Hunter 34 Panama City, FL. Nov 17, 2015. #9. I must admit I had no idea what a sugar scoop was until reading the forum. And now I would like to know a lot more about it. Anything to tame that weather helm gets my attention. Would appreciate any info from you brave souls who added the scoop to your H34. adding a sugar scoop to 46ft cross tri mpsm1957 New Member. I have a 46ft cross tri built in 1975, I'm hauling out this month and was seriously thinking about adding a sugar scoop to the center hull. It is of a diagonal plank construction with epoxy and cloth on both sides. I was thinking of using high density foam wrapped in epoxy and cloth, but what I'm not sure of is how to ... Cruising Boat Designs: Building the transom extension Adding a 'sugar scoop' will increase the sailing waterline length, but will not improve the way the boat is trimmed. Adding a transom extension with room for more gear will add even more weight in the stern. If you want to improve the sailing qualities of the boat, you might consider removing the genset. Sugar scoop sterns Visit site. There is clearly a good reason why racing boats are designed ith sugar scoop sterns - it lightens the back end and lengthens the heeled water line. BUT can anyone tell me why they are so prevalent in cruising boats where storage, deck and other usable space is more valuable than 0.2 of a knot. Is it just a fashion item, like bikinis. Sugar Scoop Swim Platform Oct 14, 2005. 2,191. 1983 Hunter H34 North East, MD. Jan 28, 2009. #5. Dave... Here are three different executions of the sugar scoop stern modification on the H34 hull. I believe that Wayne of Cabo Wabo has the molds for this installation (he's the one in Arkansas). You may want to contact him throught the Hunter Owners' listing. Sugar Scoop sterns 906. Location. The Minch. Visit site. I keep my boat on a swinging mooring, and I love my big sugar scoop, wouldn't be without one now! Not interested in racing, boat used for cruising only and the scoop is idea for loading and unloading supplies, dogs, etc. in safety. 5 Sep 2014. #9. Entering a sailboat over a sugar scoop transom in heavy seas Re: Entering a sailboat over a sugar scoop transom in heavy seas. When the boat is pitching, best scramble aboard where you can grab onto the shrouds. They're meant to take heavier loads than your body. Our boat doesn't pitch much, the stern is broad and flat (yes, a sugar scoop), so the bow may go down, but has a lot of flare to resist that ... Hunter 34Sugar Scoop 692. Hunter 34 Portsmouth. May 29, 2014. #9. It looks as though you'll have about a foot of ledge you can stand or sit on, like a swim platform. It does seem that the aft edge will be high out of the water, so getting on the platform from the water will be difficult without a ladder. Outboard mount on a sugar scoop? : r/sailing If using it for standard propulsion I'm not sure you can transfer the force required from a sugar scoop especially when reaching cruising speeds. At that point you might consider fixing the engine or sea tow if it becomes necessary. This is an example of how you mount a kicker motor on an outboard boat with an engine bracket. any downside to the sugarscope/ swim platforms? Doesn't it stand to reason that a boat with a sugar scoop stern will be slower than a boat with a traditional stern in light winds, all other things being equal? Then again, all other things are rarely equal. Modern hull design, with its greater form stability, will tolerate the greater heeling moment of more sail area, which increases driving ... Extending My Catamaran Sugar Scoops Join Date: Feb 2014. Location: richards Bay, South Africa. Boat: Royal Cape Catamaran 53 ft 20 tons. Posts: 169. Extending My Catamaran Sugar Scoops. I am extending the sugar scoops on my 53 ft. Royal Cape Catamaran. See attached pics. If one followed the existing line of the inside of the hull, the sugar scoop extension would narrow in slightly. What sailboats have step-thru transoms? Budget would be <$15k. Happy with an older boat. Shoal keel prefered, pleanty of skinny water where I sail. I have seen some newer Hunters with the sugar scoop transom but they are out of our price range. Are they found on boats built between 1980 and 1990? Guessing newer than that would be out of our price range. Thanks Ward Sugar Scoop Can someone please enlighten me as to when (what year) Catalina added the sugar scoop with a walkthrough transom to the 36' or 34'? Thanks! Menu Menu. Search. Search titles only. By: Search ... Sell Your Boat Used Gear for Sale. Parts. General Marine Parts Hunter Beneteau Catalina MacGregor Oday. Help. catamaran gulet motorboat powerboat riverboat sailboat trimaran yacht